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experiences they did a study related to

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spontaneous experiences and how they

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relate to sigh and so please welcome

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Jennifer thank you oh I can hear the

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microphones working okay so the topic of

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my talk is the frequencies of sigh

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experiences and entity encounters in

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spontaneously reported self transcendent

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experiences so that's a lot of words and

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I know that maybe some of you are not

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familiar with all of those constructs so

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I'll begin by sort of describing them

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the relevant ones I just want to say

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that I did this project with my students

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my undergraduate students and in terms

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of people have mentioned education and

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the importance of education with respect

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to the issues that we're talking about

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here I have taught an undergraduate

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course for 20 years it's been full every

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single semester undergraduates want to

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know and they want to be involved and so

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I've never at a loss for research

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assistance so to begin with to define

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self transcendent experiences this is a

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new word for an old concept the original

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idea I think was described by William

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James in his 1902 the varieties of

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religious experience it was originally

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called he originally called the mystical

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experiences he was focusing on the

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experiences that people sometimes have

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where they feel lifted out of themselves

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they feel that like they have

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transcended their separate sense of self

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and their ego and he delineated these

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four characteristics that he thought

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defined mystical experiences so I'll

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just describe what those are so in case

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you haven't had a mystical experience

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you'll get the feel for it

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the noetic quality of a mystical

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experience is a sense of understanding

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or insight the sort of you know like the

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AHA experience that we sometimes have

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even though it's not necessarily

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mystical in these cases people feel like

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they grasp reality differently more

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fundamentally than they did previously

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there's an element of ineffability

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meaning that people have trouble

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describing these experiences in words so

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it's happened but they can't quite get a

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verbal grip on it and explain it

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sufficiently to other people they

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usually entail an element of passivity

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that is they come on the person sort of

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unexpectedly there are practices which

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will allow people to sort of make them

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more likely like meditation and such as

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that but in general they sort of occur

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just spontaneously to people and then

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finally transiency is the fact that

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unfortunately they don't tend to last

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that may not be true in a few cases but

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in general they are fleeting their brief

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they come and they go since 1902 there

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there has been sort of a movement to

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demystify mystical experiences and sort

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of like the talk we were hearing earlier

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today kind of unspiritual eyes them so

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they are now actually currently called

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in the literature self transcendent

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experiences and people who have gone on

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to refine the definition have included

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other elements like a dramatic sense of

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change in self or change in time or

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change in space so if you put all those

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things together it ends up encompassing

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a very wide range of experiences but

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these are very personally important

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experiences and the impact of a self

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transcendent experience can last for

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years so I'll just give you an example

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from our this is a case from our

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research and I'll read it just because I

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know sometimes it's hard to read where

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depending where you are in the room I

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was pumping a bucket of water from the

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pump in our backyard we did not have

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plumbing

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I was not meditating nor doing anything

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to cause an altered state of

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consciousness my eye fell on an ordinary

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weed growing beside the pump and I

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suddenly was filled with awe because of

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its perfect beauty I felt I was for the

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first time seeing it as it really was

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and that I had never really perceived

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the reality of it before I felt a

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certainty that everything in all

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creation possessed this beauty and

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perfection if only we saw it as it

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really is I was filled with joy this

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lasted only an instant

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and then things were ordinary as before

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as if the Sun had come from behind the

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clouds for an instant and then was gone

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leaving all in gloom again this is

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actually the shortest case in our in our

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database and so that's you know one

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reason it's useful but it's also useful

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because it has these elements of a

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classic mystical or self transcendent

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experience I was suddenly filled

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communicates the passivity on beauty and

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joy are all elements that people

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commonly experience in these states I

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felt a certainty sort of communicates

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the noetic quality there's something

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that that person knows in this situation

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that they don't usually and it lasted

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only an instant so you know there's a

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very wide variety but this at least

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illustrates some of the components of a

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self transcendent experience so with

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respect to sigh and entity encounters I

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think at this point everybody knows what

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Sai is it's what people outside this

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room called the paranormal and so it

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encompasses a variety of experiences

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that are difficult to explain with our

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ordinary understanding of physical

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principles as they operate at our usual

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level of awareness anti T encounters is

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maybe somewhat less familiar entities is

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a deliberately ambiguous term that is

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intended to refer to a wide variety of

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beings that people experience in altered

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states that can you know be interpreted

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in a number of different ways so for

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example in our research angels

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dead relatives apparitions aliens

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anything that you know people might see

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as an independent conscious agent that

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they're experiencing that they are not

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experiencing is something that is an

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extension of themselves they are not

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seeing it as their own hallucination

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their own projection and they're

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experiencing it as an independent entity

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so we were interested in those and I'll

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just note that we left God and Jesus out

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of this because they come up so often

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that we had to limit it somehow so God

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and Jesus are a separate a separate

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issue so here's another just an excerpt

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from a transcendent experience involving

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these elements I was welcomed by angels

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praising me knowing me waiting for me

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they were greeting me an Arab

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language the peace and mercy of God

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should be on you I didn't exchange any

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word during this experience everything

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was done from mind to mind instantly

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difficult to explain so here we this is

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a good excerpt because we've got both

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elements here the angels are entities

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and the communication is mine to mind

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experience telepathically so this is an

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example of somebody who is having an

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transcendent experience that involved

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both of those elements so the method

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that we used we actually did a Content

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analysis of 236 cases these are

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self-reported cases that people

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volunteered they just spontaneously put

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up on the internet turns out people who

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put anything on the internet and we got

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them from a variety of websites so they

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were not coming from all one place we

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had limited information demographic

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information but some websites do collect

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that so we had at least a way to

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estimate and we could tell where they

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were all coming from we the so we know

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they come from at least 16 countries but

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the other demographic information is

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limited the majority of people who

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posted these are female average age 28

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but again there's always some ambiguity

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about when did the experience happen

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relative to when is the person posting

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it and what age are we getting from the

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website in any case they came they

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described self-transcendent experiences

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that occurred in a variety of context so

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lots of precursors dreams drugs and so

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on prayer meditation the hypnagogic

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state if you don't know is that state

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that where you're falling asleep where

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lots of weird things happen near-death

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out-of-body and so on so we did collect

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information about all the precursors and

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that's one of the interesting aspects of

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this is that self transcendent

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experiences as they are broadly defined

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occur under lots of conditions so we had

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a 65 item rating scale which we

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developed as we were reading these cases

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that tried to identify that the the

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elements that occurred you know in

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multiple cases so from the precursors to

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emotional effects cognitive effects

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after-effects and so on so for example

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did the

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experience oneness unity or connection

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to the universe in general you know

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would be sort of a typical element that

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might define it as a self transcendent

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experience did the person encounter

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someone they knew who is dead so that's

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where we get the information about

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entities and so on and so I and my

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students each rate into these cases on a

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one to five scale because we just were

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stuck with static text we had to look

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through the text and it decide whether

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or not this element was present or not

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in the text so for example if the person

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says I just smoked a lot of marijuana

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before this happened then we would say

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yes they were using drugs but you know

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so yes was five one was no or they

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didn't mention it and then there was

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some ambiguity where you can't really

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tell so the person says they were

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relaxing in bed then they have this

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experience were they dreaming we don't

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know you know so there's a middle ground

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that we were trying to incorporate using

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a Likert scale so each each experience

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was rated at least twice and sometimes

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more than that because we were going for

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maximum reliability and we did get a

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chromebox alpha greater than 0.7 which

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for some of you it means that we had

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adequate inter-rater reliability but we

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also use the criteria that if Raiders

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were farther than two points apart on

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any item for the 65 items on the Likert

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scale then we'd go back and look at it

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and try to you know figure out whether

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or not we could even we could rate that

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so in the end we averaged scores so that

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we would get one set of scores for each

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case and then that's the data that we

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used for the analysis so with respect to

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psy experiences overall 14% of the

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self-transcendent experiences and

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involved them the probably can't read

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those numbers so I'll read them to you

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there were 6.8% involved clairvoyance of

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some kind 6.4 percent involved

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precognition 3% telepathy and no

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experiences of psychokinesis so the

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reason those don't add up to 14% is

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because in some cases there was more

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than one psy experience in the same

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self-transcendent experience

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with respect to entities there were 19

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point 1 percent of the cases overall had

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involved entities with 11.1% being

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angels spirit guides you know some

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spiritual figure again not God or Jesus

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and then 6.8%

277
00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:20,900
were another kind of being which was

278
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:22,790
kind of our default category because

279
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:24,650
there was a very wide variety there was

280
00:11:29,050 --> 00:11:27,530
rats and there were light beings and

281
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,060
there were people doing work and there

282
00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:31,040
was you know there was a wide range of

283
00:11:37,210 --> 00:11:32,750
other elements that we couldn't really

284
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:37,220
clearly categorize 5.1% were people that

285
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:39,250
the person already knew knew were dead

286
00:11:42,670 --> 00:11:40,610
already

287
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:42,680
and then two-point-six ghosts or

288
00:11:47,380 --> 00:11:45,200
apparitions so it just gives us an idea

289
00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:47,390
that these are they're not uncommon

290
00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:49,160
elements of self transcendent

291
00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:54,620
experiences so in conclusion what we

292
00:12:01,200 --> 00:11:58,090
essentially found is that both sigh and

293
00:12:03,579 --> 00:12:01,210
entity encounters are elements of a

294
00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:03,589
substantial minority of self

295
00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:05,270
transcendent experiences and they

296
00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:08,510
haven't really been investigated to find

297
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:10,550
out the prevalence of those experiences

298
00:12:16,750 --> 00:12:13,730
within this category of altered state so

299
00:12:18,910 --> 00:12:16,760
that was something however it's a little

300
00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:18,920
sort of underwhelming to some extent

301
00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:22,040
because we would expect that given what

302
00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:25,310
we think about what facilitates both

303
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:28,870
sigh and entity experiences for example

304
00:12:36,940 --> 00:12:34,310
Michel FAL burn in 20 2006 proposed what

305
00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:36,950
he calls the filter theory and but you

306
00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:38,630
know he's just one person who has

307
00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:40,700
proposed a specific theory that that

308
00:12:45,790 --> 00:12:43,880
serves the same purpose he suggested

309
00:12:48,490 --> 00:12:45,800
that psychologically there are people

310
00:12:50,260 --> 00:12:48,500
who have thin boundaries that is the

311
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:50,270
distinction between their conscious and

312
00:12:54,610 --> 00:12:52,160
unconscious is somewhat permeable and so

313
00:12:57,070 --> 00:12:54,620
information can transfer more easily

314
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:57,080
from the unconscious to the conscious in

315
00:13:01,870 --> 00:12:59,600
people within boundaries so what that

316
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:01,880
would predict psychologically is that

317
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:03,440
there are people who are would be more

318
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:05,570
likely to experience all kinds of

319
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:08,000
altered states because if part of the

320
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:09,530
experience of altered states is having

321
00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:09,990
acts

322
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:12,660
to some part of your awareness that you

323
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:15,330
don't usually have access to that's part

324
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:17,010
of the definition of a self transcendent

325
00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:18,720
experiences you're going beyond your

326
00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:21,630
usual mode of experiencing therefore

327
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:23,550
wouldn't you then sometimes have access

328
00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:28,050
to these other elements similarly-sized

329
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:30,000
phenomenon and transcendent experiences

330
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:32,330
need to be explained together and this

331
00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:36,000
one paper that argues for this is

332
00:13:43,130 --> 00:13:39,720
marshals from 2011 and again that's sort

333
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:43,140
of a no-brainer because contemplative

334
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:45,210
traditions have known forever that if

335
00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:48,090
you alter intentionally alter your focus

336
00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:50,220
of your attention and intentionally move

337
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:52,080
yourself out of your ordinary awareness

338
00:13:56,060 --> 00:13:54,810
then psy experiences and entity

339
00:13:59,090 --> 00:13:56,070
encounters are something that naturally

340
00:14:02,930 --> 00:13:59,100
happens on the way on the path of that

341
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:02,940
practice so Marshall and many other

342
00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:05,130
people have said we cannot just take out

343
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:07,830
these sigh and entity encounter

344
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:10,110
experiences and pretended that there's

345
00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:11,910
something separate from other altered

346
00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:15,030
states so that's kind of where we're

347
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:18,840
left with theoretically so this blob

348
00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:22,380
over here on your right is a mess and

349
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:24,750
it's supposed to be like that because I

350
00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:26,490
think that actually represents reality I

351
00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:28,830
think reality is a mess and what we're

352
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:31,830
trying to do is artificially separate it

353
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:33,690
out and say oh no this is a group of

354
00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:35,130
experiences that is separate from this

355
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:37,080
group of experiences and the people in

356
00:14:40,460 --> 00:14:38,970
OBEs never talk to the people who are

357
00:14:43,190 --> 00:14:40,470
talking you know dealing with dreams and

358
00:14:45,890 --> 00:14:43,200
so on but my impression at least from

359
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:45,900
this database and from other research is

360
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:49,110
that it it all overlaps and that there

361
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:51,810
there's a common mechanism somewhere

362
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:53,370
which I guess is what we're trying to

363
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,920
get at that facilitates all kinds of

364
00:15:00,650 --> 00:14:58,320
altered states and unusual experiences

365
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:00,660
and so for self transcendent experiences

366
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,050
they can be facilitated by all these

367
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:05,760
precursors and they can involve you know

368
00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:09,600
both of these elements and as we have

369
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:12,870
access to larger and larger numbers of

370
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:16,320
cases all we do is see more and more

371
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:18,810
variety in people's experiences this has

372
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:20,610
happened in other areas of altered

373
00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:22,320
states as well such as the near-death

374
00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:23,430
experiences

375
00:15:28,190 --> 00:15:25,470
research done by sampar Nia that was

376
00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:28,200
published in 2014 the aware study where

377
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:30,630
he had you know several hundred people

378
00:15:35,270 --> 00:15:32,310
who had recovered from cardiac arrest

379
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:35,280
and one of his findings was that there's

380
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:39,090
a much larger variability to people's

381
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:41,510
experiences in near-death states than

382
00:15:47,150 --> 00:15:44,160
just Raymond Moody's lights and tunnels

383
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:47,160
and you know dead relatives so I think

384
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:50,130
that as we get into all of these states

385
00:15:53,390 --> 00:15:52,050
and sort of have access to more and more

386
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:53,400
information especially because of the

387
00:15:58,340 --> 00:15:56,250
internet we're going to get a more

388
00:15:59,840 --> 00:15:58,350
complicated picture perhaps than we

389
00:16:02,510 --> 00:15:59,850
would like to have because it makes

390
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:02,520
dealing with these phenomenon that much

391
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:04,620
more difficult I've done the same thing

392
00:16:07,790 --> 00:16:06,570
with DMT entity experiences everybody

393
00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:07,800
thinks everybody gets Maschine else

394
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:09,840
because Terence Mckenna said machine l's

395
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:11,730
that's not what everybody gets they get

396
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:16,770
all kinds of things so another important

397
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:19,770
point I think is that it's important to

398
00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:22,770
remember that the the qualitative data

399
00:16:27,530 --> 00:16:25,380
of people's direct experience has to

400
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:27,540
remain fundamental because I think that

401
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:29,220
that's what we're trying to explain

402
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:32,310
anyway and so it for me personally it's

403
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:34,410
helpful to start with somebody's

404
00:16:38,450 --> 00:16:36,690
description of their experience it's

405
00:16:40,220 --> 00:16:38,460
also useful to come at it from the other

406
00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:40,230
direction and you know do more

407
00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:43,260
controlled scientific experiments but at

408
00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:44,940
least from the psychological perspective

409
00:16:48,590 --> 00:16:46,830
you know you're always that's the

410
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:48,600
fundamental data is what people say they

411
00:16:53,660 --> 00:16:51,210
experienced so just the last couple

412
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:53,670
things first of all obviously there are

413
00:16:58,430 --> 00:16:56,220
pretty limiting factors to this study

414
00:17:00,350 --> 00:16:58,440
primarily the lack of information we

415
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:00,360
didn't have we couldn't interview people

416
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:02,010
we couldn't follow-up we couldn't say

417
00:17:04,579 --> 00:17:04,110
what did you mean by that that we just

418
00:17:07,070 --> 00:17:04,589
had

419
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:07,080
static written text on the other hand

420
00:17:12,050 --> 00:17:09,900
they were also spontaneously reported

421
00:17:13,850 --> 00:17:12,060
and so this is people's best description

422
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:13,860
of what they experienced when they're

423
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:15,510
not talking to anybody in particular

424
00:17:20,090 --> 00:17:18,810
they're just putting it out there so

425
00:17:22,010 --> 00:17:20,100
there's always the problem of

426
00:17:23,870 --> 00:17:22,020
self-report people miss remember things

427
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:23,880
we don't know how long it was since the

428
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:26,310
experience occurred but if nothing else

429
00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:27,930
we're getting what was important to them

430
00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:30,540
even if it's years after the experience

431
00:17:34,529 --> 00:17:31,809
occurred and it's

432
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:34,539
meaningful and then finally their work

433
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:36,490
certainly cases where we needed to sort

434
00:17:44,159 --> 00:17:39,990
of use a little literary interpretation

435
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:44,169
and kind of get in understand the

436
00:17:47,610 --> 00:17:45,460
inference that they were trying to

437
00:17:51,539 --> 00:17:47,620
communicate with what they communicated

438
00:17:53,489 --> 00:17:51,549
and so those that will only be those

439
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,499
limitations will only be resolved as we

440
00:17:57,659 --> 00:17:55,360
gather more data and as we if we could

441
00:18:00,269 --> 00:17:57,669
follow it up and find a sample of people

442
00:18:02,909 --> 00:18:00,279
who are willing to actually be in person

443
00:18:05,430 --> 00:18:02,919
interviewed in person so in the future

444
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:05,440
our goal is to expand the database we

445
00:18:08,639 --> 00:18:07,360
already have to some extent we're up to

446
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:08,649
more like three hundred and fifty cases

447
00:18:13,529 --> 00:18:11,710
at this point so as we gather more cases

448
00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:13,539
and we do the same analysis on them or

449
00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:15,700
we're going to you know be narrowing our

450
00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:17,289
confidence interval about what the

451
00:18:23,249 --> 00:18:20,860
actual prevalence is for 4sy experiences

452
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:23,259
and entity encounters overall what our

453
00:18:28,169 --> 00:18:26,289
best guess is but really we're actually

454
00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:28,179
aiming to use this database from for

455
00:18:32,220 --> 00:18:30,340
more than just that to see whether we

456
00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:32,230
can now that I've just said it's

457
00:18:37,019 --> 00:18:34,990
impossible see whether we can separate

458
00:18:39,149 --> 00:18:37,029
out the kinds of experiences people have

459
00:18:40,889 --> 00:18:39,159
under different circumstances is a

460
00:18:43,169 --> 00:18:40,899
transcendent experience in an

461
00:18:45,570 --> 00:18:43,179
out-of-body experience different than

462
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:45,580
one that occurs under hypnosis or you

463
00:18:51,509 --> 00:18:47,769
know can we reliably distinguish between

464
00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:51,519
them and ultimately in the next several

465
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:53,350
months I hope we will have enough cases

466
00:18:57,869 --> 00:18:55,450
in order to actually factor analyze and

467
00:19:00,269 --> 00:18:57,879
get some characteristics of the main

468
00:19:02,999 --> 00:19:00,279
elements of what a self-transcendent

469
00:19:05,369 --> 00:19:03,009
experience actually involves so that's

470
00:19:07,649 --> 00:19:05,379
our goal and that's where we are at with

471
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:07,659
it right now and thank you for your

472
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:09,410
attention

473
00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:21,780
Thank You Jennifer I want to compliment

474
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:24,070
you on your staying in within the time

475
00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:26,620
limit we're very good at thanks John

476
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:30,520
thanks Jennifer very exciting that

477
00:19:35,130 --> 00:19:32,530
people feel compelled to share these

478
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:35,140
things online in an anonymous way right

479
00:19:37,289 --> 00:19:35,679
right

480
00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:37,299
where any of them on message boards

481
00:19:43,410 --> 00:19:38,920
where their people are conversing about

482
00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:43,420
them I know they're on they're more like

483
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:47,049
posted to the site right and then you

484
00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:49,510
know sometimes they say sometimes they

485
00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:51,340
will add like a little note like if

486
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:53,350
anybody knows what's going on please

487
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:56,080
help you know kind of thing but I was so

488
00:19:59,789 --> 00:19:57,850
far we haven't looked at listservs where

489
00:20:02,190 --> 00:19:59,799
there's a back-and-forth and one sub

490
00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:02,200
question to that in the experiences

491
00:20:06,049 --> 00:20:03,400
where people talking at all about

492
00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:06,059
long-term effects after these

493
00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:08,020
self-transcending well this is something

494
00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:11,230
that I didn't mention but is you know

495
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:13,480
consistent with what we know about these

496
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:15,370
kinds of experiences is that they are

497
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:18,549
impactful for a very long time and the

498
00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:22,240
only anecdotal information I can give

499
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:24,790
you about that is that in some cases

500
00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:26,620
they do say when this happened to them

501
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:28,540
they were 14 and now they're 60 and

502
00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:30,040
they're still thinking about it so that

503
00:20:33,169 --> 00:20:31,630
is that's definitely in there and at

504
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:33,179
some point we'll be able to separate out

505
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:36,730
those cases and say look how long these

506
00:20:43,409 --> 00:20:38,590
people have been thinking about this so

507
00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:43,419
yes that happens thank you what

508
00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:45,880
percentage if any could be considered

509
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:50,799
UFO or alien related not very many

510
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:54,850
except for the drug-induced ones so I

511
00:21:00,810 --> 00:20:57,970
mean I can't give you exact numbers but

512
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:00,820
it does definitely seem like you know

513
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:05,770
DMT seems to bring on the aliens and

514
00:21:09,539 --> 00:21:08,110
it's less likely to happen under other

515
00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:09,549
circumstances although out of body

516
00:21:18,419 --> 00:21:12,580
sometimes once in a while could be oh I

517
00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:18,429
see okay thank you so did I understand

518
00:21:23,010 --> 00:21:20,230
correctly that you've done essentially

519
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:23,020
all of your data gathering by

520
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:25,330
harvesting posts from the internet from

521
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:30,580
various websites how much confidence do

522
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:35,200
you have that these are actually honest

523
00:21:44,910 --> 00:21:38,110
self reports and not just exercises and

524
00:21:46,919 --> 00:21:44,920
creative fiction writing none but but

525
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:46,929
it's the best we can do so it's that

526
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:48,850
sort of situation where you know nobody

527
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:51,010
knows that we're taking these cases off

528
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:53,650
of the internet you know so I don't know

529
00:21:56,790 --> 00:21:55,450
why people post things there anyway I

530
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:56,800
mean that would be a whole separate

531
00:21:59,730 --> 00:21:58,720
study that we could compare it to people

532
00:22:02,310 --> 00:21:59,740
who would just say things to you in

533
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:02,320
person but no I have no way of knowing

534
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,760
whether or not somebody just decided

535
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:05,679
they were going to write this up as

536
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:08,410
their own short story and leave it at

537
00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:14,970
thank you I wanted to ask did you find

538
00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:17,260
that a relatively consistent feature of

539
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:19,900
the experiences that you studied was a

540
00:22:25,710 --> 00:22:22,690
kind of self contradiction but not

541
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:25,720
necessarily in a way that that makes the

542
00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:29,020
experience less credible but would

543
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,140
gesture toward the ineffability of the

544
00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:34,960
experience as felt by the people

545
00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:38,260
reporting for instance I noticed in one

546
00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:39,940
of your slides there's the example of

547
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:42,460
the woman who felt like she was being

548
00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:45,130
telepathically communicated with but

549
00:22:53,490 --> 00:22:48,820
also said that the beings were talking

550
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:53,500
in Arabic well yeah I think that's a

551
00:22:58,620 --> 00:22:55,990
good example of it it's not very common

552
00:23:00,660 --> 00:22:58,630
and especially with respect to that

553
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:00,670
little excerpt I will say that I think

554
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:04,030
there's a subset of these cases who may

555
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:06,400
be actively psychotic as they're writing

556
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:09,760
them and just clinically speaking it

557
00:23:14,610 --> 00:23:12,370
sort of sounds that way to me and that's

558
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:14,620
one of the elements that we rate there

559
00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:16,540
are people who seem like they are

560
00:23:22,910 --> 00:23:19,390
further out of touch with sort of our

561
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:22,920
ordinary reality than others and so it

562
00:23:27,660 --> 00:23:25,570
but the other element with respect to

563
00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:27,670
that particular excerpt is I think

564
00:23:31,470 --> 00:23:29,470
sometimes they are struggling to try to

565
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:31,480
communicate what they experienced and so

566
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:33,370
it does perhaps sometimes end up

567
00:23:43,670 --> 00:23:41,150
yeah I would like to just follow up on

568
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:43,680
your opinion York obviously asked a good

569
00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:46,380
question but I think that may be more

570
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:48,780
pertinent question is what might be

571
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:51,930
defined using what you intuitively

572
00:23:58,300 --> 00:23:54,930
senses truth or wisdom how what is your

573
00:24:01,700 --> 00:23:58,310
impression about I guess the

574
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:01,710
authenticity of the feel of the accounts

575
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:04,890
you found online it actually I mean

576
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:07,440
personally reading through them is you

577
00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:09,570
know inspiring that what it actually

578
00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:12,390
comes across is that people are about

579
00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:14,190
what to make of this that there is so

580
00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:16,800
little discussion of spontaneous

581
00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:19,140
transcendent experiences in our culture

582
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:21,780
that you know one of our questions is

583
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:22,980
did they feel like they were going

584
00:24:28,460 --> 00:24:26,000
insane because it comes up so often so

585
00:24:30,590 --> 00:24:28,470
actually I mean I'm there's the

586
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:30,600
possibility that some percentage of them

587
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:33,330
are fraudulent or something but that is

588
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:36,450
not my impression having read through

589
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:39,710
them and I assume also then that

590
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:43,170
intuitively that use you sense or feel a

591
00:24:49,670 --> 00:24:47,850
commonality of authenticity so that in

592
00:24:51,890 --> 00:24:49,680
spite of the variation that there are

593
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:51,900
common themes that kind of resonate with

594
00:24:56,450 --> 00:24:53,850
you having gone through as many as you

595
00:24:59,150 --> 00:24:56,460
have is that right and it does it ends

596
00:25:03,380 --> 00:24:59,160
up being a lot like William James

597
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:03,390
suggested and include the general sense

598
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:05,850
of being able to get beyond your

599
00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:07,650
ordinary perspective seems to be the

600
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:15,500
no we don't actually thank you thank you